My 69 Sportsman has a Buick V6 that is a rebuilt short block with my
original Buick add ons like the intake, valve covers, water pump,
distributor etc. The distributor cap is original I think as it has the OMC
gray paint around the base. It is a stock delco cap but the window is
different with screen wire instead of the little door. I have several NIB
caps for this motor and they are in Delco Boxes with an OMC routing tag on
them (OMC Part # 383586) and they have the little screens in them too. The
posts on top are numbered 1 thru 6 in CounterClockwise fashion. There is a
gnarly rubber gasket between the distributor base and cap. It is hard to get
the cap on with the gasket staying in proper position but mine is still
there and it stays in place with a little fussing while you put the cap on.
I bet many of those gaskets got tossed by impatient mechanics years past?
The number one post is the post above the window and the window points fore
about 45 degrees to the left (starboard). The number 2 post is left (port)
to the number one post and it goes on counterclockwise 3456 back to 1. The
wires follow the posts so number 1 post wire goes to port 1 plug. Number 2
post and wire go across to the starboard 2 sparkplug etc. Odd number plugs
on passenger or port side and even number plugs on driver or starboard side.
The rotor goes clockwise so the firing order (as confirmed on the valve
cover ) is 165432. What a crazy firing order! Too simple or else I have it
all screwed up but the engine runs.
If you tried filing the points then that may be the trouble - I do not think
contemporary points are designed to be filed ( I learned that the hard way
in the early 80's with a 73 Corvette I was trying to shave some bucks by
filing the points - I didn't get far!) You can still find all this stuff on
ebay - yea I know you guys get tired of hearing that but you can get all the
points condensers etc. you need for around 15 - 20 bucks a set. All you need
is a parts manual with the numbers.
The cap is designed to be airtight and if it is not then moisture can get in
over the winter and do its magic. If you keep the bilge dry then this may
not happen. Some of us remember driving though puddles in old GM cars and
the exhaust steam would short out the distributor. It would usually restart
if you were living right.
If all else fails then turn the engine till you are top dead center ( TDC )
to cylinder #1 then ease the harmonic balancer timing line to the proper
advance or retard (not sure the number at this time) and put the rotor in
line with #1 on the cap. You may have to lift the distributor to set. You
want the window to face forward when the engine is tuned. You don't want it
to be posterior or to the side. The manual describes it better than I can. I
good mechanic can do it in 15 min.
Hope this helps. Tom K.
-----Original Message-----
From: omc-boats-request@...
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 12:00 PM
To: omc-boats@...
Subject: OMC-Boats Digest, Vol 67, Issue 2
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Spark plug wire order for odd-fire V-6 (William Howk)
2. Re: Spark plug wire order for odd-fire V-6 (hoggar@...)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 09:46:25 -0700
From: William Howk <bchowk@...>
To: Ethan Brodsky <brodskye@...>
Cc: OMC Boats <omc-boats@...>
Subject: Re: [OMC-Boats] Spark plug wire order for odd-fire V-6
Message-ID:
<CA+x37KhpFiSCO5NvGWvZMy0Ra22st=ywXxsFEBUu1yQWjHo2GA@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Perhaps this will help? the firing order is cast into the valve covers on
mine...used to know it off the top of my head...
http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142386
On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Ethan Brodsky <brodskye@...> wrote:
> This question is directed to anybody who has an odd-fire 225 in^3 V-6. I'm
> trying to trouble-shoot some ignition problems and it'd be nice to talk to
> somebody who a similar engine. I noticed that Dave Rusilas discussed
> having this engine in a post ~5 years ago (and again in 2010), so I'm
> hoping he's still got his and is reading the list.
>
> My points started sticking over the winter, so I opened up the distributor
> (first time since I bought the boat in '04) to clean them. After that the
> engine would start and idle just fine, but is popping (misfiring) under
> load. I think that may just be due to the points still being dirty and
> I've got some new ones coming (thought about doing Pertronix, but decided
> to replace the points instead) but that's not my main concern.
>
> The distributor is just as described by Dave below - a Delco Remy unit
> with mechanical advance, a screen on the distributor cap (which has evenly
> spaced contacts, both inside and out), and an elongated rotor.
>
> While I had it apart, I noticed that the order of the plug wires makes no
> sense. My OMC dealer service manual (for the exact make, model, and year
> of my boat) says that the contact on the distributor just to the "right"
> of
> the screen is #1, and that they increase in a clockwise order (looking
> from
> the top). But when I look at my distributor cap, the one marked #1 is
> exactly aligned with the screen and they increase counter-clockwise.
>
> My understanding is that the portside cylinders are 135 (front to rear)
> and the starboard cylinder are 246. The firing order marked on the valve
> cover is 165432, so I would assume that cylinder 1 should go to contact 1
> on the distributor cap, cylinder 6 to 2, cylinder 5 to 3, cylinder 4 to 4,
> cyl 3 to 5, and cyl 2 to 6.
>
> This isn't how it was wired though, either in the anti-clockwise order
> marked on the cap or the clockwise order specified in the manual.
>
> Unless my notes were wrong, they were wired as follows:
> cylinder numbered contact on distributor
> 1 2
> 2 1
> 3 3
> 4 4
> 5 5
> 6 6
>
> I can't come up with any rotation or reversal of this pattern that would
> yield the pattern I'm supposed to get. I'm wonder if I wrote down the
> ordering incorrectly? It seems unlikely, as I marked the wires one at a
> time in order as I removed them and it idles fine with the current
> configuration, but who knows? If my notes are correct, it's probably been
> that way for years.
>
> I am pretty sure that my engine is the odd-fire - the casting number on
> the block is 991503, which is supposed to be "V6, Odd-Fire, Kaiser Jeep
> Corp/AMC". I didn't look at the cam in the distributor, but the rotor has
> the elongated arm described by Jeff.
>
> To determine if your engine is an odd-fire, look at the casting number
> (visible on the top of the engine, at the back where it bolts onto the
> intermediate housing) and match it up with this list:
> http://nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~**reese/**BuickV6CastingNumbersandIntern**
> alSpecs.pdf<http://nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~reese/BuickV6CastingNumbersandInternalSpecs.pdf>
>
> If anybody has an odd-fire V-6, is there any chance you could look at the
> distributor and tell me:
> a. Which port is #1? (relative to the screen and the front of the
> engine)
> b. Do the ports increase clockwise or counter-clockwise?
> c. What is the part number on your distributor cap?
> d. What order are the cylinders wired to the distributor?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Ethan
>
>
> On Wed, 30 Jul 2008, drusilas@... wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>>
>> My boat is a 1969 Sportsman with an odd fire 155. It doesn't have the
>> original block but I'm pretty sure that
>> the distributor is original. It's a Delco Remy w/ centrifugal advance
>> only. I'll try to get a distributor
>> number off it later. The cap is held down by 2 screw latches and there is
>> no gasket. It has a spark arresting
>> screen breather on the side where the point's adjustment port would be on
>> the auto version of the cap. The
>> contacts are spaced evenly, 60 degrees apart from each other. The
>> difference is in the rotor. Its contact is
>> elongated by 15 degrees of arc to allow it to fire at both 45 and 75
>> degree intervals. The cam on the
>> distributor shaft may have 45 - 75 spaced lobes. I'll look at it when it
>> gets light outside and get back to
>> you.
>>
>> I think that the irregular spaced cap contacts that Lee is talking about
>> are on the Delco HEI distributors. I
>> tried to install one once but it wouldn't fit because the diameter of the
>> cap is so large that it interfered
>> with the thermostat housing. I opted for a Pertronix Igniter system
>> instead and it works great. It uses a Hall
>> Effect trigger set off by magnets on a ring which mounts below the rotor.
>> Magnets are spaced around the ring at
>> alternating 45 and 75 degree intervals. The part number is 1165 if you're
>> interested.
>>
>> Dave Rusilas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: JEFF DOOD <jdood@...>
>> To: Evinrude & Johnson Boats of the 1960's and 70's <
>> omc-boats@...>
>> Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:54 pm
>> Subject: Re: [OMC-Boats] timing/carb adjustment
>>
>> awesome! i think i need to check out the underside of all my collection
>> of caps and see what's up. then make sure i try this whole thing over
>> with the odd fire distributer in there instead and see what happens. esp
>> if it would start, but not have power past 10 mph otherwise. sounds
>> just
>> like what my prob might be. plus i am armed with more info to quiz my
>> mechanic about.
>>
>> on the car vs marine distributor topic though - i need some solid info.
>> i have heard car distributors are illegal and get you big fines if
>> discovered by the coast guard. also heard the reason is due to the
>> seal
>> around the cap. marines are screwed down, cars are not. spark can
>> get out without screwed down seal. escaping spark can blow things up.
>> fine or no fine, not interested in the blowing up part. so are the
>> delco's just behind the times and everything since has been brought up to
>> more stringent safety standards? and if the delco ends up working best
>> with my engine, should i be concerned about it not being a marine
>> distributor?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 29, 2008, at 4:34 PM, Lee Shuster wrote:
>>
>> > Jeff,
>> >
>> > Sorry if I confused you with a little too much info. I'll make it a
>> > little easier to understand:
>> >
>> > Since the distributor is gear driven off the camshaft, and the >
>> camshaft
>> > is driven by a 2:1 gear off the crankshaft, I could have explained the
>> > odd-fire timing interval in DISTRIBUTOR CAP DEGREES not relative
>> > CRANKSHAFT DEGREES. It's very helpful if you view
>> > http://home.off-road.com/~**merls_garage/oddfire.html<http://home.off-road.com/~merls_garage/oddfire.html>
>> >
>> > Let's look at your Mallory cap and assume for a minute that it is > for
>> a
>> > EVEN FIRE ENGINE: You are correct 360 / 6 (evenly spaced distributor
>> > posts is 60 degrees apart on the INSIDE of the distributor cap. I was
>> > correct in saving 120-120-120-120-120-120 of crankshaft rotation for
>> > each firing point because the crankshaft turns two revs for each rev >
>> of
>> > the distributor.
>> >
>> > If you examine in the INSIDE of a DELCO REMY ODD-FIRE Distributor you
>> > will notice UNEVEN spacing of the contact traces. BUICK engineers
>> > altered the contact area to match a 45-75-45-75-45-75 degree pattern.
>> > The external wire sockets are NOT altered, the still are in the >
>> classic
>> > 60-degree spread. Pretty trick, eh?
>> >
>> > So as they say, your mileage my vary, but I suspect a +/- 15 degree
>> > isn't enough to keep the engine from starting with the wrong >
>> distributor
>> > cap. But I can well imagine, it doesn't idle very well and doesn't >
>> want
>> > to run more than 10 mph.
>> > So is it a case of mis-matched distributors?
>> >
>> > How do you solve this mystery? One certain way is to pull off a >
>> cylinder
>> > head and observe the piston timing. Another way might be to start
>> > looking for GM casting numbers or OMC serial number plate on the block
>> > and try and determine if you have an odd-fire 225 or an odd-fire > 231,
>> or
>> > an even fire 231 or even fire 252. I guess another method is trial and
>> > error substitution. And don't forget -- firing order matters, as well,
>> > as you have noted.
>> >
>> > It's too bad the mechanic didn't take notes or write what he did. It
>> > would be nice to get back to a known starting point, in figuring out
>> > where you are and where you are going. If your Buick came out of a
>> > dual-engine boat it is probably an odd-fire 225, but you can't be
>> > positive someone didn't change them out.
>> >
>> > It still sounds to me like you did get into an even-fire distributor
>> > with the Mallory. Don't worry about the vacuum advance that's the >
>> least
>> > of your problems. And I don't believe that OMC used marine-grade DELCO
>> > REMY distributors, but I could be wrong on that on the V6 Buicks.
>>
>
> --
> <a
> href="http://homepages.cae.**wisc.edu/~brodskye/<http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~brodskye/>">
> Ethan Brodsky </a>
> _______________________________________________
> OMC-Boats mailing list
> OMC-Boats@...
> http://lists.ultimate.com/mailman/listinfo/omc-boats
>
>
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 19:26:47 +0000 (UTC)
From: hoggar@...
To: Ethan Brodsky <brodskye@...>
Cc: omc-boats@...
Subject: Re: [OMC-Boats] Spark plug wire order for odd-fire V-6
Message-ID:
<1145674628.108776.1370892407431.JavaMail.root@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Here is a discussion on the 155 Odd fire Firing order.
http://omcboats.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=398&p=676&hilit=odd+fire+order#p676
And here is a PDF of the OMC 150 Hp Stern drive Owners Manual.
http://omcboats.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=375 Hoggar. ----- Original
Message -----
> This question is directed to anybody who has an odd-fire 225 in^3 V-6.
> I'm
> trying to trouble-shoot some ignition problems and it'd be nice to
> talk to
> somebody who a similar engine. I noticed that Dave Rusilas discussed
> having this engine in a post ~5 years ago (and again in 2010), so I'm
> hoping he's still got his and is reading the list.
> My points started sticking over the winter, so I opened up the
> distributor
> (first time since I bought the boat in '04) to clean them. After that
> the
> engine would start and idle just fine, but is popping (misfiring)
> under
> load. I think that may just be due to the points still being dirty and
> I've got some new ones coming (thought about doing Pertronix, but
> decided
> to replace the points instead) but that's not my main concern.
> The distributor is just as described by Dave below - a Delco Remy unit
> with
> mechanical advance, a screen on the distributor cap (which has evenly
> spaced contacts, both inside and out), and an elongated rotor.
> While I had it apart, I noticed that the order of the plug wires makes
> no
> sense. My OMC dealer service manual (for the exact make, model, and
> year
> of my boat) says that the contact on the distributor just to the
> "right" of
> the screen is #1, and that they increase in a clockwise order (looking
> from
> the top). But when I look at my distributor cap, the one marked #1 is
> exactly aligned with the screen and they increase counter-clockwise.
> My understanding is that the portside cylinders are 135 (front to
> rear) and
> the starboard cylinder are 246. The firing order marked on the valve
> cover
> is 165432, so I would assume that cylinder 1 should go to contact 1 on
> the
> distributor cap, cylinder 6 to 2, cylinder 5 to 3, cylinder 4 to 4,
> cyl 3
> to 5, and cyl 2 to 6.
> This isn't how it was wired though, either in the anti-clockwise order
> marked on the cap or the clockwise order specified in the manual.
> Unless my notes were wrong, they were wired as follows:
> cylinder numbered contact on distributor
> 1 2
> 2 1
> 3 3
> 4 4
> 5 5
> 6 6
> I can't come up with any rotation or reversal of this pattern that
> would
> yield the pattern I'm supposed to get. I'm wonder if I wrote down the
> ordering incorrectly? It seems unlikely, as I marked the wires one at
> a
> time in order as I removed them and it idles fine with the current
> configuration, but who knows? If my notes are correct, it's probably
> been
> that way for years.
> I am pretty sure that my engine is the odd-fire - the casting number
> on the
> block is 991503, which is supposed to be "V6, Odd-Fire, Kaiser Jeep
> Corp/AMC". I didn't look at the cam in the distributor, but the rotor
> has
> the elongated arm described by Jeff.
> To determine if your engine is an odd-fire, look at the casting number
> (visible on the top of the engine, at the back where it bolts onto the
> intermediate housing) and match it up with this list:
> http://nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~reese/BuickV6CastingNumbersandInternalSpecs.pdf
> If anybody has an odd-fire V-6, is there any chance you could look at
> the
> distributor and tell me:
> a. Which port is #1? (relative to the screen and the front of the
> engine)
> b. Do the ports increase clockwise or counter-clockwise?
> c. What is the part number on your distributor cap?
> d. What order are the cylinders wired to the distributor?
> Thanks!
> Ethan
> On Wed, 30 Jul 2008, drusilas@... wrote:
> > Jeff,
> >
> > My boat is a 1969 Sportsman with an odd fire 155. It doesn't have
> > the original block but I'm pretty sure that
> > the distributor is original. It's a Delco Remy w/ centrifugal
> > advance only. I'll try to get a distributor
> > number off it later. The cap is held down by 2 screw latches and
> > there is no gasket. It has a spark arresting
> > screen breather on the side where the point's adjustment port would
> > be on the auto version of the cap. The
> > contacts are spaced evenly, 60 degrees apart from each other. The
> > difference is in the rotor. Its contact is
> > elongated by 15 degrees of arc to allow it to fire at both 45 and 75
> > degree intervals. The cam on the
> > distributor shaft may have 45 - 75 spaced lobes. I'll look at it
> > when it gets light outside and get back to
> > you.
> >
> > I think that the irregular spaced cap contacts that Lee is talking
> > about are on the Delco HEI distributors. I
> > tried to install one once but it wouldn't fit because the diameter
> > of the cap is so large that it interfered
> > with the thermostat housing. I opted for a Pertronix Igniter system
> > instead and it works great. It uses a Hall
> > Effect trigger set off by magnets on a ring which mounts below the
> > rotor. Magnets are spaced around the ring at
> > alternating 45 and 75 degree intervals. The part number is 1165 if
> > you're interested.
> >
> > Dave Rusilas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: JEFF DOOD <jdood@...>
> > To: Evinrude & Johnson Boats of the 1960's and 70's
> > <omc-boats@...>
> > Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:54 pm
> > Subject: Re: [OMC-Boats] timing/carb adjustment
> >
> > awesome! i think i need to check out the underside of all my
> > collection of caps and see what's up. then make sure i try this
> > whole thing over with the odd fire distributer in there instead and
> > see what happens. esp if it would start, but not have power past 10
> > mph otherwise. sounds just like what my prob might be. plus i am
> > armed with more info to quiz my mechanic about.
> >
> > on the car vs marine distributor topic though - i need some solid
> > info. i have heard car distributors are illegal and get you big
> > fines if discovered by the coast guard. also heard the reason is
> > due to the seal around the cap. marines are screwed down, cars
> > are not. spark can get out without screwed down seal. escaping
> > spark can blow things up. fine or no fine, not interested in the
> > blowing up part. so are the delco's just behind the times and
> > everything since has been brought up to more stringent safety
> > standards? and if the delco ends up working best with my engine,
> > should i be concerned about it not being a marine distributor?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jul 29, 2008, at 4:34 PM, Lee Shuster wrote:
> >
> > > Jeff,
> > >
> > > Sorry if I confused you with a little too much info. I'll make it
> > > a
> > > little easier to understand:
> > >
> > > Since the distributor is gear driven off the camshaft, and the
> > > camshaft
> > > is driven by a 2:1 gear off the crankshaft, I could have explained
> > > the
> > > odd-fire timing interval in DISTRIBUTOR CAP DEGREES not relative
> > > CRANKSHAFT DEGREES. It's very helpful if you view
> > > http://home.off-road.com/~merls_garage/oddfire.html
> > >
> > > Let's look at your Mallory cap and assume for a minute that it is
> > > for a
> > > EVEN FIRE ENGINE: You are correct 360 / 6 (evenly spaced
> > > distributor
> > > posts is 60 degrees apart on the INSIDE of the distributor cap. I
> > > was
> > > correct in saving 120-120-120-120-120-120 of crankshaft rotation
> > > for
> > > each firing point because the crankshaft turns two revs for each
> > > rev
> > > of
> > > the distributor.
> > >
> > > If you examine in the INSIDE of a DELCO REMY ODD-FIRE Distributor
> > > you
> > > will notice UNEVEN spacing of the contact traces. BUICK engineers
> > > altered the contact area to match a 45-75-45-75-45-75 degree
> > > pattern.
> > > The external wire sockets are NOT altered, the still are in the
> > > classic
> > > 60-degree spread. Pretty trick, eh?
> > >
> > > So as they say, your mileage my vary, but I suspect a +/- 15
> > > degree
> > > isn't enough to keep the engine from starting with the wrong
> > > distributor
> > > cap. But I can well imagine, it doesn't idle very well and doesn't
> > > want
> > > to run more than 10 mph.
> > > So is it a case of mis-matched distributors?
> > >
> > > How do you solve this mystery? One certain way is to pull off a
> > > cylinder
> > > head and observe the piston timing. Another way might be to start
> > > looking for GM casting numbers or OMC serial number plate on the
> > > block
> > > and try and determine if you have an odd-fire 225 or an odd-fire
> > > 231, or
> > > an even fire 231 or even fire 252. I guess another method is trial
> > > and
> > > error substitution. And don't forget -- firing order matters, as
> > > well,
> > > as you have noted.
> > >
> > > It's too bad the mechanic didn't take notes or write what he did.
> > > It
> > > would be nice to get back to a known starting point, in figuring
> > > out
> > > where you are and where you are going. If your Buick came out of a
> > > dual-engine boat it is probably an odd-fire 225, but you can't be
> > > positive someone didn't change them out.
> > >
> > > It still sounds to me like you did get into an even-fire
> > > distributor
> > > with the Mallory. Don't worry about the vacuum advance that's the
> > > least
> > > of your problems. And I don't believe that OMC used marine-grade
> > > DELCO
> > > REMY distributors, but I could be wrong on that on the V6 Buicks.
> --
> Ethan Brodsky
> _______________________________________________
> OMC-Boats mailing list
> OMC-Boats@...
> http://lists.ultimate.com/mailman/listinfo/omc-boats
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