Re: [OMC-Boats] timing/carb adjustment

thanks - this actually helped me out today. i think that one you
have is the official original stock distributor. narrowed it down
with mechanic today. and it's sort of an automotive distributor,
but apparently grandfathered in. so i heard today atleast.

On Jul 30, 2008, at 2:04 AM, drusilas@... wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> My boat is a 1969 Sportsman with an odd fire 155. It doesn't have
> the original block but I'm pretty sure that the distributor is
> original. It's a Delco Remy w/ centrifugal advance only. I'll try to
> get a distributor number off it later. The cap is held down by 2
> screw latches and there is no gasket. It has a spark arresting
> screen breather on the side where the point's adjustment port would
> be on the auto version of the cap. The contacts are spaced evenly,
> 60 degrees apart from each other. The difference is in the rotor.
> Its contact is elongated by 15 degrees of arc to allow it to fire at
> both 45 and 75 degree intervals. The cam on the distributor shaft
> may have 45 - 75 spaced lobes. I'll look at it when it gets light
> outside and get back to you.
>
> I think that the irregular spaced cap contacts that Lee is talking
> about are on the Delco HEI distributors. I tried to install one once
> but it wouldn't fit because the diameter of the cap is so large that
> it interfered with the thermostat housing. I opted for a Pertronix
> Igniter system instead and it works great. It uses a Hall Effect
> trigger set off by magnets on a ring which mounts below the rotor.
> Magnets are spaced around the ring at alternating 45 and 75 degree
> intervals. The part number is 1165 if you're interested.
>
> Dave Rusilas
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: JEFF DOOD <jdood@...>
> To: Evinrude & Johnson Boats of the 1960's and 70's <omc-boats@...
> >
> Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:54 pm
> Subject: Re: [OMC-Boats] timing/carb adjustment
>
> awesome! i think i need to check out the underside of all my
> collection of caps and see what's up. then make sure i try this
> whole thing over with the odd fire distributer in there instead and
> see what happens. esp if it would start, but not have power past 10
> mph otherwise. sounds just like what my prob might be. plus i am
> armed with more info to quiz my mechanic about.
>
> on the car vs marine distributor topic though - i need some solid
> info. i have heard car distributors are illegal and get you big
> fines if discovered by the coast guard. also heard the reason is
> due to the seal around the cap. marines are screwed down, cars
> are not. spark can get out without screwed down seal. escaping
> spark can blow things up. fine or no fine, not interested in the
> blowing up part. so are the delco's just behind the times and
> everything since has been brought up to more stringent safety
> standards? and if the delco ends up working best with my engine,
> should i be concerned about it not being a marine distributor?
>
>
>
> On Jul 29, 2008, at 4:34 PM, Lee Shuster wrote:
>
> > Jeff,
> >
> > Sorry if I confused you with a little too much info. I'll make it a
> > little easier to understand:
> >
> > Since the distributor is gear driven off the camshaft, and the
> > camshaft
> > is driven by a 2:1 gear off the crankshaft, I could have explained
> the
> > odd-fire timing interval in DISTRIBUTOR CAP DEGREES not relative
> > CRANKSHAFT DEGREES. It's very helpful if you view
> > http://home.off-road.com/~merls_garage/oddfire.html
> >
> > Let's look at your Mallory cap and assume for a minute that it is
> > for a
> > EVEN FIRE ENGINE: You are correct 360 / 6 (evenly spaced distributor
> > posts is 60 degrees apart on the INSIDE of the distributor cap. I
> was
> > correct in saving 120-120-120-120-120-120 of crankshaft rotation for
> > each firing point because the crankshaft turns two revs for each rev
> > of
> > the distributor.
> >
> > If you examine in the INSIDE of a DELCO REMY ODD-FIRE Distributor
> you
> > will notice UNEVEN spacing of the contact traces. BUICK engineers
> > altered the contact area to match a 45-75-45-75-45-75 degree
> pattern.
> > The external wire sockets are NOT altered, the still are in the
> > classic
> > 60-degree spread. Pretty trick, eh?
> >
> > So as they say, your mileage my vary, but I suspect a +/- 15 degree
> > isn't enough to keep the engine from starting with the wrong
> > distributor
> > cap. But I can well imagine, it doesn't idle very well and doesn't
> > want
> > to run more than 10 mph.
> > So is it a case of mis-matched distributors?
> >
> > How do you solve this mystery? One certain way is to pull off a
> > cylinder
> > head and observe the piston timing. Another way might be to start
> > looking for GM casting numbers or OMC serial number plate on the
> block
> > and try and determine if you have an odd-fire 225 or an odd-fire
> > 231, or
> > an even fire 231 or even fire 252. I guess another method is trial
> and
> > error substitution. And don't forget -- firing order matters, as
> well,
> > as you have noted.
> >
> > It's too bad the mechanic didn't take notes or write what he did. It
> > would be nice to get back to a known starting point, in figuring out
> > where you are and where you are going. If your Buick came out of a
> > dual-engine boat it is probably an odd-fire 225, but you can't be
> > positive someone didn't change them out.
> >
> > It still sounds to me like you did get into an even-fire distributor
> > with the Mallory. Don't worry about the vacuum advance that's the
> > least
> > of your problems. And I don't believe that OMC used marine-grade
> DELCO
> > REMY distributors, but I could be wrong on that on the V6 Buicks.
> >
> > Lee
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: omc-boats-bounces@...
> > [mailto:omc-boats-bounces@...] On Behalf Of JEFF DOOD
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 3:31 PM
> > To: Evinrude & Johnson Boats of the 1960's and 70's
> > Subject: Re: [OMC-Boats] timing/carb adjustment
> >
> > thanks lee, you might be on to something here. perfect timing
> too
> > because i'm geared up to have to tow my boat back over to the
> mechanic
> > again tomorrow. i replied to specific parts of your email in
> caps:
> >
> >
> > On Jul 29, 2008, at 10:43 AM, Lee Shuster wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Jeff,
> >>
> >> I'd like to ask a couple of "dumb" questions:
> >>
> >>>> So a short history on my boat: had "different" Buick 155 put in
> >> my boat last winter.
> >>
> >> Do you know the history or source of your "different" Buick V6? Is
> >> it a 225 Cu in or 231 Cu in?
> >>
> > NOT SURE - BOUGHT FROM A GUY WHO HAD TWO IN SOME SORT OF DUAL ENGINE
> > BOAT (NEVER SAW WHICH BOAT)
> >>
> >> It's a long shot but --- You could have a even-fire crankshaft
> >> (231) engine which requires a different distributor. Stay with me:
> >>
> >> The original OMC Buick V6's were all odd-fire and were 225 cu in.
> >> They used Delco-Remy distributors designed specifically for the
> odd-
> >> fire 225 cu in. Buick engineers first introduced the 90-degree
> >> "Fireball" 198 CID V6 for the Buick Special & Skylark in 1961. In
> >> 1964 Buick bumped the V6's displacement to 225 CID. The 90-degree
> >> 225 CID V6 engine was essentially the 300 CID V8 with two cylinders
> >> removed. Odd-fire V6 firing intervals were staggered at 90 and 150
> >> degrees so the tooling could be shared with the V8. A 231 CID odd-
> >> fire V6 was offered from '76 - '78.
> >>
> >> For smoother idling, Buick switched to a (weaker) split-pin
> >> crankshaft, resulting in an even-firing V6 with the 231 & 252 CID
> >> V6's midway through the 1977 model year and later. Even firing 6's
> >> use 120 degree intervals. Hard for the average car mechanic to
> tell
> >> the difference from external appearances.
> >>
> >> (Look at the distributor cap and you'll see the rather "odd" odd-
> >> fire spacing, 90-150-90-150-90-150.) See my website for more
> details
> >> on the odd-fire/even-fire Buick V6:
> > http://hhscott.com/evinrude/buick_v6.htm
> >>
> >> If you want a more detailed explanation on the odd-fire oddities
> >> see: http://home.off-road.com/~merls_garage/oddfire.html
> >>
> >
> > WELL, CHECKED BOTH SITES - I'M GETTING LOST ON THE FIRE SPACING
> > STUFF. REGARDLESS, PART OF THIS COULD HAVE TO DO WITH THAT I
> HAD TO
> > SORT OF GUESS AT WHICH WIRES WENT WHERE ON THE NEW DISTRIBUTOR'S
> > CAP. I'M PRETTY CONFIDENT ABOUT WHICH CYLINDERS ARE #1, #2 ETC.
> > THE PREVIOUS CAP WAS MARKED WITH NUMBERS AND BEFORE TAKING OFF IT
> OFF
> > I MARKED THE PLUG WIRES. [THE #1 IS FRONT RIGHT SIDE WHEN VIEWING
> > FROM THE FRONT. ALL THE ODD'S ARE ON THE PORT, EVENS ON THE SB. ]
> > BUT THE NEW CAP DOESN'T EVEN HAVE #1 MARKED ANYWHERE LIKE THE
> > OTHERS. BUT ACCORDING TO THE MANUAL THE ROTOR POINTS TO THE FRONT
> > WHEN #1 PISTON IS AT TOP DEAD CENTER. AND THE ORDER OF THE WIRES
> > ON THE PREVIOUS CAP WAS COUNTER CLOCKWISE STARTING WITH #1. AND
> THE
> > NEW CAP (AND PREVIOUS) HAVE A PIN TO ALIGN THEM WITH THE
> > DISTRIBUTOR. SO I GOT THE #1 PISTON AT TDC, ROTOR POINTING
> TOWARDS
> > FRONT, AND SINCE THE CAP ONLY GOES ON ONE WAY, MADE THE ASSUMPTION
> > THAT #1 MUST BE RIGHT WHERE THE ROTOR WAS POINTING (WHICH MATCHED
> WHAT
> > THE MANUAL SAID). THEN I PLUG IN THE WIRES IN SEQUENCE GOING CCW
> > AROUND THE CAP. DID I DO THAT RIGHT?
> >
> > TO ADD TO THE MIX HERE, YOU MENTIONED DELCO REMY DISTRIBUTORS.
> THE
> > "ORIGINAL" DISTRUBUTER THAT WAS ON THE ENGINE WHEN I BOUGHT IT
> (BEFORE
> > THE CAR DISTRIBUTER THE MECHANIC PUT ON) SAID DELCO - REMY ON THE
> > TOP. IT'S A BIG CAP, ABOUT TWICE THE SIZE OF THE MALLORY. AND
> IT
> > DOESN'T LOOK LIKE A TYPICAL DIST CAP. SO IF THE ODD FIRES CAME
> WITH
> > THOSE DISTRIBUTERS, PERHAPS THAT MIGHT INDICATE I HAVE AN ODD FIRE.
> > HOWEVER, THERE'S NO GUARANTEE THOSE WERE NECESSARILY "ORIGINAL"
> > EITHER. BUT MY GUESS WOULD BE THEY WERE.
> >
> > I STILL AM NOT SURE WHY THE MECHANIC TOOK THAT DELCO REMY OFF AND
> PUT
> > ON THE OTHER "CAR" DIST.
> >
> > AND JUST TO ADD EVEN MORE CONFUSION IN HERE, THE "CAR" DISTRIBUTOR
> > PUT ON BY THE MECHANIC HAD THAT SAME VACUUM TUBE THING STICKING OFF
> > THE FRONT LEFT SIDE, JUST LIKE THE "CORRECT" DISTRIBUTER SHOWN ON
> THE
> > ENGINE IN YOUR PHOTO AT YOUR SITE. BUT THAT'S THE SPECIFIC PART
> > THE GUY AT THE DOCK POINTED TO AND SAID "THERE'S YOUR PROBLEM, YOU
> > HAVE A CAR DISTRIBUTOR ON THERE, SEE THAT VACUUM THING ON THE
> > FRONT?" SHEESH. AND WHEN I MENTIONED THE PREVIOUS
> > DISTRIBUTER THAT HE FOR SOME REASON REMOVED SAYING "DELCO REMY" ON
> IT,
> > HE SAID "OH YEAH, THAT'S A CAR DISTRIBUTOR" - (HEARING ME SAY
> > "DELCO"). PART OF THE PROB IS HE'S THE SHOP OWNER WITH THE
> SUPPOSED
> > OMC EXPERIENCE, YET HIS UNDERLING HAS BEEN DOING ALL THE WORK ON THE
> > ENGINE. SO HE DIDN'T KNOW WHY THE GUY TOOK IT OFF EITHER, AND
> > MENTIONED MAYBE CLEARANCE WITH THE COWLING ISSUES (I LATER TESTED
> AND
> > IT CLEARED.) AND NEITHER THE DELCO REMY'S OR THE MALLORY THAT I
> > HAVE ON THERE NOW HAVE THAT LITTLE VACUUM THING ON THE FRONT LIKE
> > YOUR PHOTO. THOROUGHLY CONFUSED YET?
> >
> > TO CUT TO THE CHASE, I STILL HAVE THE DELCO REMY. IN FACT TWO OF
> > THEM. HOW COMPLETE THEY ARE I DON'T KNOW, BUT ASSUMABLY I COULD
> > ROUND UP POINTS, ROTOR, CONDENSER.
> >
> > BUT THIS ALL BEGS THE QUESTION(S) - IF I HAVE AN EVEN FIRE
> DISTRIBUTOR
> > ON AN ODD FIRE ENGINE, AND/OR HAVE MY PLUG WIRES IN THE WRONG ORDER
> > ON THE CAP, WOULDN'T ALL THAT PREVENT THE ENGINE FROM STARTING AT
> > ALL?
> >
> > IS MISSING THAT VACUUM THING PART OF THIS? THERE DOES NOT APPEAR
> TO
> > BE A PLACE TO CONNECT UP THE OTHER END OF A TUBE ON MY CARB ANYWAY.
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Was your "mechanic" a car guy or an experienced OMC marine guy?
> >>
> > SO HE SAYS.
> >>
> >>
> >> Your used Mallory Marine distributor? Is it possible you got an
> even-
> >> fire V6 distributor and stuck it into your odd-fire? Check the
> >> inside of the distributor cap: Evenly spaced 6's are
> >> 120-120-120-120-120-120 degrees apart.
> >>
> > CONFUSED ABOUT THIS. HOW CAN I TELL THE DEGREES? THERE'S SIX
> PORTS
> > ALL EVENLY ARRAYED AROUND THE 360 DEGREES OF THE CAP (60 d APART?).
> > WHERE'S THE 120 ?
> >
> >
> >> I have never heard of a Mallory distributor being used on an odd-
> >> fire Buick, but I suppose anything is possible. Also, re-check the
> >> firing order: The odd-fire firing order is 1-6-5-4-3-2.
> >>
> >> The even-numbered cylinders are starboard, while the odd-numbered
> >> cylinders are port-side.
> >>
> >
> > MY ODDS ARE ON PORT SIDE.
> >> The heads feature an unusual valve arrangement: E-I-E-I-I-E (port
> >> bank, stated from front to rear, or starboard bank, stated from
> rear
> >> to front.) (Where Even-fire Firing Order is: 1-6-3-5-2-4)
> >>
> >> There's some very strange possibilities going on here -- This
> thread
> >> is beginning to remind we of Click & Clack!
> >>
> >> Hang in there -- I'm just trying to help out by figuring out
> exactly
> >> what you have. Do you have a SELOC or OMC shop manual? that would
> >> be helpful.
> >>
> >
> > I DO HAVE BOTH ACTUALLY. BUT THE SELOC I THINK IS FROM THE MID 70'S
> > ON.
> >>
> >>
> >> Oh yeah, what carb do you have? OMC used both 1-barrel (1964-65)
> >> and 2-barrels (1966 - 1970). I think the 1-barrel's were Carter's
> >> and the 2-barrels were Rochester's.
> >>
> >
> > AH YES, THE CARB. IT'S A ROCHESTER 2 BARREL.
> >
> >
> > AND ON A SIDE NOTE- AFTER GLANCING OVER THE AFTERMARKET "BEEF UP
> > YOUR ENGINE" STUFF YOU MENTION AT YOUR SITE, I AM ABOUT READY TO
> SAY
> > TO HELL WITH MY POSSIBLY MIS-MATCHED WHO KNOWS WHAT CARB AND
> > DISTRIBUTOR AND GO FOR NICE NEW BEEFIER STUFF. I PLAN ON KEEPING
> > THIS BOAT FOR A LONG TIME. JUST BOUGHT NEW SEATS FOR IT. I WANT
> > AN ENGINE THAT STARTS AND RUNS AS RELIABLY AS IT POSSIBLY CAN. I'M
> > SITTING HERE TRYING TO LEARN HOW TO SET THE TIMING, KNOWING THAT
> IF I
> > DON'T IT MEANS WEEKS AT THE MECHANIC AND $$ EVERY YEAR. BUT IF
> > THERE'S SOME SORT OF UPGRADE THAT WOULD GET ME A NO TUNING NEEDED
> > ELECTRONIC IGNITION, I AM ALL FOR IT.
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Lee Shuster
> >> Salt City
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: omc-boats-bounces@...
> > [mailto:omc-boats-bounces@...
> >> ] On Behalf Of JEFF DOOD
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 10:00 AM
> >> To: Evinrude & Johnson Boats of the 1960's and 70's
> >> Subject: Re: [OMC-Boats] timing/carb adjustment
> >>
> >> .....so many applicable topics on this list to what i'm going
> through
> >> with my boat right now. first off, i have a mechanic, but i
> dread
> >> having to leave my boat with him because i usually don't see it for
> >> another month. So i have been crash coursing myself to try learn
> >> about my engine and work on it myself as much as possible. i am
> >> good with cars, great with electrical stuff. boat engine stuff -
> >> so
> >> so. and when it gets into timing and carb adjustment i am really
> >> feeling my way through it. i haven't even done that on a car yet.
> >>
> >>
> >> So a short history on my boat: had "different" Buick 155 put in
> my
> >> boat last winter. mechanic got it running, starting, but never
> water
> >> tested. a few weeks back took it out for test, started fine,
> ran
> >> ok at low speed, but lost all power at about 10mph. He
> thought
> >> carb rebuild needed. i rebuilt carb that weekend. test ran and
> >> still had same problem. Although adjusting it was kind of a
> guessing
> >> game. My mechanic said to screw the two adjustment screws in all
> >> the
> >> way until the engine almost stalls, then back them out about a turn
> >> and a half. he also said to do this while boat was underway, not
> >> idling in neutral. Well i did this, and had the screws in about
> >> every conceivable position and always the same thing - no power at
> >> about 10 mph.
> >>
> >> So back to the dock i slowly went. Random guy at the dock
> >> suggested it might be a bad distributer. (mechanic didn't bother
> >> telling me i had a car distributer on there). So i got a used
> but
> >> good condition, SUPPOSEDLY original Mallory distributer.
> replaced
> >> points, condenser, installed this past weekend. Went to dock to
> for
> >> timing last night. (First time i have ever timed anything).
> Got
> >> it started, idled alittle rough but nothing major. Twisted the
> >> distributer and got the white mark to mostly line up with the "5"
> as
> >> spec'd in the manual. Seemed to smooth out idle at first.
> Then i
> >> played with carb screws again. Double checked timing, etc etc.
> >> End result is same thing, except maybe a little worse. now
> >> idles a
> >> little rough and stalls out at about 10 mph.
> >>
> >> Any suggestions?
> >>
> >> When setting the timing, is the white mark that is to be line up
> >> with the "5" supposed to bounce all over making it really difficult
> >> to line up exactly?
> >>
> >> how important is the tach in this process? i have no working
> >> tach. But in theory, shouldn't i be able to get things get
> pretty
> >> close by just listening to the engine?
> >>
> >> am i adjusting the carb correctly? is there a sequence to
> >> adjusting all this stuff - carb then timing? timing then carb?
> >>
> >> if i end up having to replace the carb altogether, is there an
> >> source
> >> for those out there? new? used?
> >>
> >>
> >> would sure love to use my boat this summer!
> >>
> >> thanks, jeff
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jul 28, 2008, at 1:58 PM, Don Mandelas wrote:
> >>
> >>> Ethan, I undertsand what your saying. I'll recheck the RPMs with
> >> the
> >>> timing light again and double check the settings. (I'll re-do the
> >> test
> >>> so that I'm confident with the results). Maybe I'll even get the
> >>> tinytach you were talking about.
> >>>
> >>> Don.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:42:35 -0500
> >>>> From: brodskye@...
> >>>> To: omc-boats@...
> >>>> Subject: Re: [OMC-Boats] Engine RPM and Boat Speed
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008, Don Mandelas wrote:
> >>>>> This weekend I was able to obtained a timing light and digitally
> >>> measure
> >>>>> the revalutions per minute of my V-6 155 hp boat engine.
> >>>>> I discovered that when the timing light indicated 1,100 RPM's my
> >>> boat
> >>>>> tachometer was reading 1,000 RPM's. And, when the timing light
> >>> indicated
> >>>>> 4,000 RPM's my boat tachometer was reading 3,000 RPM's. This
> >>> means my
> >>>>> tachometer is reading a full 1,000 rpms below what it should be
> >>> on the
> >>>>> higher end of the scale and is probably the primary reason why I
> >>> am going
> >>>>> slower than normal. I'll replace the tachometer and try the boat
> >>> again.
> >>>>
> >>>> This sounds a little strange - you say that the tach is reading
> >>> low, so the
> >>>> engine is actually spinning faster (and making more power) than
> >>> believed.
> >>>>
> >>>> I found the opposite on mine - when I measure the RPM (using a
> >>> TinyTach
> >>>> inductive pick-up on a spark wire), I see that the tach is
> reading
> >>>> substantially high (1000-1500 rpm). My understanding is that
> older
> >>> tachs
> >>>> tend to read high due to weakening of the return spring with age.
> >>>>
> >>>> Are you sure you had the timing light set properly (some can be
> >>> switched
> >>>> between various combinations of two-stroke/four-stroke, single/
> >> multi
> >>>> cylinder, and wasted-spark modes) and it wasn't reading high by a
> >>> factor of
> >>>> two? I'm not sure how it works with older distributors, whether
> >>> each spark
> >>>> plug fires once for every revolution or just every second time. I
> >>> think
> >>>> it's the latter.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tinytachs are a fairly cheap way to have a more accurate RPM
> >>> reading, as
> >>>> well as an hour-meter. Unfortunately I don't remember whether the
> >>> 4C or
> >>>> the 2C should be used.
> >>>> http://www.tinytach.com/tinytach/gasoline.php
> >>>>
> >>>> If anyone has figured out a way to adjust the factory OMC facts,
> >>> I'd like
> >>>> to fix mine. I haven't figured out how to do that yet.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ethan
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Ethan Brodsky
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> OMC-Boats mailing list
> >>>> OMC-Boats@...
> >>>> http://lists.ultimate.com/mailman/listinfo/omc-boats
> >>>
> >>>
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Received on Thursday, 31 July 2008